[Serious Phil] Shop talk

Tue May 15 23:04:38 CDT 2012

--- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "seanwilsonorg" <ludwig.sean at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> I'm not sure we are communicating. Let's go very slowly.
> 
> 1. When you say that Brampton is moderating, do you mean this site here:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analytic-borders/
> 

Sean,

Yes, this group, with the hyphen, is what Borders was always called in the URL. 

> Or this one:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analyticborders/

Huh? I didn't even know the group without the hyphen existed! Who owns this one? Must be you I guess, or else the result of some old clerical error. 

> 2. I never deleted any mails. You should review our correspondence in 2009. I was very public in explaining everything I did. I had no idea archives had disappeared. When you mailed me about it, I didnt even know what you were talking about.
> 
> 3. All I thought I was doing was sending a defunct address list back to its owner, who could have mailed those people an invitation to join the private group. 

OK, but if you want to start a private group by invitation only, what's the point of deleting the entire membership of an already existing public group??

SW> I made its so that Borders would not belong to either faction as a matter of inertia. We were forced to leave Borders as much as you. You always forget that part of the story: you guys forced us out too. So we went on our way to build our home. 

"We"? Who's we? The only action taken after the messages and members all disappeared was your removal as moderator of Analytic-borders.

SW> You guys started Borders 2, which today has about the  same number of functioning participants as when Borders 1 was closed. 

No, a lot fewer actually, unless dozens more have signed uop recently. 

SW> To my knowledge, the old Borders always remained recoverable by someone who would simply send those addys an email.

And again, why put anyone through the trouble of doing that? I could be wrong, I suppose, but from my point of view the deletion of all the members was an act of utterly pointless vandalism.

Honestly, it's hard for me to understand what you were thinking. It's not as if "Analytic-borders" was a valuable brand name known throughout the world of Internet philosophy, so that it was worth engaging in some kind of power struggle to implement your vision under that name. It was, and is, an obscure backwater with a handful of amateur members like most other Yahoo groups. So is Analytic. If you have a vision for a certain kind of group, what's wrong with starting your own? Indeed you have done that, and nobody has any problem with that. 

> 
SW> If you really are trying to restore the OLD borders, why don't you invite me to be a member so I can at least see what you are seeing. No messages were ever deleted. Again, check your 2009 mails from me. That should be very clear.

If you want to join for some reason, just ask Martin and see how he responds. It's up to him. I'm just a member, not an official inviter or anything like that.

But what you would see is very simple to describe: about 700 messages in the archive last I looked, but not a one dating from before the Border Wars.

Larry

> 
> --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "larry_tapper" <Philscimind@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "seanwilsonorg" <ludwig.sean@> wrote:
> > >
> > > ... here's what I did. I deleted the members and set the group to "closed." This meant that no one could see the archives unless they were a member.
> > 
> > Sean,
> > 
> > Looking at the Group Settings, "Closed" means membership by invitation only: it has nothing to do with management of the archive. 
> > A moderator can turn archive access off (the setting is called Off under Archive options) but once it's restored, I see no reason why only the post-restoration part of the archive should be viewable.  
> > 
> > You asked who's moderating Borders now --- it's not me but Martin Brampton. Anyway, the group is now set up the same way it was before, and the archives look perfectly normal --- they're just missing all the old messages. So I still have no idea why that should be the case, if they were not deleted.
> > 
> > Would you care to explain why you deleted all the members? Without any advance notice too, IIRC. I imagine that startled quite a few occasional lurkers when they tried to check the latest messages.
> > 
> > Larry    
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Once my membership was removed, I lost sight of the archives, too. The owner of the group can still see them. The owner, in theory, should be able to make the membership no longer "closed," though I don't know that one for sure.
> > > 
> > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "larry_tapper" <Philscimind@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --------- Response from Sean Wilson -----------
> > > > I did not delete a thing. I could still see the archives as i was closing the shop. The archives are not gone, they are just hidden. I did not know that would result when I turned the lights out. 
> > > > 
> > > > Sean,
> > > > 
> > > > If the Borders archives are still retrievable, that would be nice, because there are some posts I'd like to be able to fish out of them, such as an index to On Certainty I made a few years ago.
> > > > 
> > > > Could you explain what you mean by "closing the shop" and "turning the lights out"? As you know I'm a Yahoo moderator too, and I don't see any such options on the Management menus, which are rather simple. 
> > > > 
> > > > As far as I know, the only way to make the archive go away is to delete its contents. You can restrict access to it, but then we'd expect the messages to reappear once access is restored. I can view the Borders archive now, but it is missing all the old messages.
> > > > 
> > > > So it might help to understand what you meant by "turning the lights out".
> > > > 
> > > > Larry 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "whoooo26505" <ludwig.sean@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Here are two messages that were sent to the forum in the wrong way. I deleted them. So here is the content:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I checked the older lists (the Wisdom Forum and the Philosophy and Science of Mind) and can find little on the debate re: the relative merits of Dennett's model vs. Searle's CRA denial. It looks like that argument must have arisen some time around the switch from the Wittgenstein-dialognet to Analytic-Borders that Bruce and I made. Since he and I were then discussing the subject of moral judgments, I would hazard that the serious stuff on consciousness only got going after we made that switch, i.e., it probably began on Borders. It may have started after I made some comment in passing on the subject and PDJ responded to me off-line and I suggested we hold our debate in the more public spotlight of the Borders list. Unfortunately, if I recall aright, Sean, you cleaned out the old Borders archive when you were briefly running it so, if that's where the debate began, its origins are now lost to history (unless you can pull them up again)! -- SWM
> > > > > 
> > > > > --------- Response from Sean Wilson -----------
> > > > > I did not delete a thing. I could still see the archives as i was closing the shop. The archives are not gone, they are just hidden. I did not know that would result when i turned the lights out. Whoever is the owner of that group can still see them. If we knew the password and username, I believe they could be extracted by many different software programs . In fact, I think fur forum could do that. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > > 
> > > > > ---------- Response from Stuart ---------
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sean, I've been trying to respond to an apparently private e-mail you sent me from this site but when I do it ends up going out as an e-mail but not appearing on this list. I don't know if it's an artifact of something gone haywire with my computer link or something with the list server itself at Yahoo, something in the software perhaps? Anyway, this post is partly a test of Yahoo (if it works, it should post here) and partly a repeat of my post which has so far failed to appear here twice!
> > > > >  
> > > > >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Got your e-mail Sean re: the disappearance of the old archives from Borders and I apologize for suggesting that you had intentionally wiped them away.
> > > > >  
> > > > > That HAD been the allegation of some of your adversaries which I'd read on Analytic during the heated arguments that erupted back when you briefly took charge of Borders and attempted to redirect it. Of course I should have been more senstive to what can happen when a particular narrative is presented as fact and hammered home through high volume rhetoric and repetition. It tends to work its way into the history we recall!
> > > > >  
> > > > > So let me correct the record here, using your own statement about this:
> > > > >  
> > > > > As you point out, you ". . . did not delete [them] [and] . . . could still see [them] as [you were] closing the shop. . . . The archives are not gone, they are just hidden. . . . the owner of that group can still see them. . ."
> > > > >  
> > > > > I do apologize for inadvertently perpetuating one of the many false narratives that tend to worm their way into the historical record thanks to rhetorical excess and the inattention of some, like me, who should know better!
> > > > >  
> > > > > SWM
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
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