[Serious Phil] Shop talk
larry_tapper_2
larry_tapper_2 at yahoo.com
Wed May 16 17:07:25 CDT 2012
--- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "seanwilsonorg" <ludwig.sean at ...> wrote:
>
>
> You appear to be right.
>
> 1. Borders-2 was founded on July 8th. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analytic-borders/message/1
> (see also, front page)
>
> 2. Wittrs was founded on July 7th. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wittrs/
>
> (Rodrigo pulled the plug on me on the 9th).
>
> So, the hyphen must have come out on the 7th, allowing Brampton to use it. Thing is, I had always thought everyone knew that Brampton's group was new. Are you telling me that Rodrigo started that group and made Brampton moderator?
Sean, Yes.
Later:
> ,,,Anyway, I still take issue with this statement: "If he does unlock it, we should expect to find the old messages in the /messages subfolder where they normally belong. Or else no messages, depending on what happened."
>
> I hope you are not still pushing the stupid idea that I deleted those things.
No, "what happened" could include any number of things, including the archives getting clobbered by buggy Yahoo software what with all the transfers and name changes. I mentioned that possibility before.
LT
I had thought it was Brampton all the way.
>
> Because I had thought Brampton's group NEW, I had assumed that you and everyone else knew that it could NOT be the old group. As late as the 9th, before the Rodrigo axed me, I had tried to help you out with the archive for the old group. [See mail below]. The day that this mail was exchanged between you and I, Brampton's group was already running.
>
> The thing that puzzled me was why you kept complaining here and there about the archives, but never asked me for help. I had assumed you were just swiping at me. In fact, I posted a message on analytic a while back where I disputed the things you were saying, namely: (a) that archives were deleted; and (b) that they were not recoverable. I've always held it in my mind that the reason you guys didn't do anything with the old borders groups is because you simply had the new one. So I took this archive stuff as trolling.
>
> Anyway, I still take issue with this statement: "If he does unlock it, we should expect to find the old messages in the /messages subfolder where they normally belong. Or else no messages, depending on what happened."
>
> I hope you are not still pushing the stupid idea that I deleted those things. Which is worse to be false about: (a) that you should have known where the site was; or (b) that I deleted every single one of the messages just to do it?
>
> I mean, I don't think we can talk to one another if you actually believe that. Everything I did in the old Borders I can defend on principle. I would have absolutely no interest in destroying an archive, because the matter had as much interest to me as, say, manure.
>
> So I think that, for you and I to talk to one another, we at least have to take each other at our basic word. I never deleted your archives.
>
>
> ======= EVIDENCE ==============
> (Mail sent to Larry Tapper, July 9:)
>
> .. the archive settings are not working. When I make them public and save the change, it doesn't do anything. It automatically changes back. I've written to yahoo. They gave me a form mail (below). They are supposed to contact me later.
>
> Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.
> Assistant Professor
> Wright State University
> Redesigned Website: http://seanwilson.org
> SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/seanwilsonorg
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/seanwilsonorg
> New Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html
>
>
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>
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> ===== END EVIDENCE ==============
>
> --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "larry_tapper" <Philscimind@> wrote:
> >
> > Sean,
> >
> > Aha, I understand the whole thing now, almost.
> >
> > During your flurry of name changes, Rodrigo's ownership kept getting propagated from one renamed group to the next, because you were never the owner of the old Borders, only a moderator. In the course of renaming Borders to Wittrs and back to Borders again, you somehow dropped the hyphen without noticing that you had done so. Then Rodrigo, who had long since been an absentee owner, checked his groups, found that he was still the owner of the now hyphenless Borders group, and revoked your moderator status. Then he revived Borders with all the old (hyphenated) URLs.
> >
> > Rodrigo's revocation of your moderatorship had the unfortunate effect of leaving the unhyphenated group with zero members, because you had deleted them all.
> >
> > So you are probably right to say that whatever remains of the old Borders archive is locked up in the unhyphenated group. If this theory is correct, then only Rodrigo can unlock it. If he does unlock it, we should expect to find the old messages in the /messages subfolder where they normally belong. Or else no messages, depending on what happened.
> >
> > You were however wrong to complain about how I didn't even know where the old Borders was. It had always been in the hyphenated URLs until the Great Renaming Blitz occurred, and there is no way anyone but you and Rodrigo could have been expected to know or care about that.
> >
> > I imagine that this is all quite boring to everyone but you, me and possibly Walto. Pardon me for that, I have a programming background and still enjoy figuring out strange debugging puzzles every now and then.
> >
> > Larry
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "seanwilsonorg" <ludwig.sean@> wrote:
> > >
> > > .. you got it wrong.
> > >
> > > The borders url was switched to wittrs. When I opened wittrs up on my own, I had to switch it back to borders. Two groups can't have the same name. I then bookmarked the page on my browser so I could watch what happened as I left. After I had "closed shop," I could access the old borders with this url:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analyticborders/
> > >
> > > After about a day, I was kicked out of seeing anything, because it said I was no longer a member. I assume Rodrigo did that.
> > >
> > > Brampton started a group with a hyphen because the url was available? Why was it available? Either I had misnamed it when leaving (taking the name wittrs with me). Or, your memory is wrong about the hyphen being there originally. If your memory is based solely on the analytic link to the sister group, is possible another moderator changed that? When I first saw Borders 2, I had thought the hyphen an innovation. This believe, of course, could mean that I made a mistake when renaming borders-1 (that I thought no hyphen there).
> > >
> > > Either way, your archives are on that site. If you can't get them out on your own, you ought to send me the keys over there. That's where they are. I could at least try (if you fail).
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "larry_tapper" <Philscimind@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "seanwilsonorg" <ludwig.sean@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well Larry, if what you are saying is that you can handle the situation, we'll let you go on believing that Brampton's group isn't a fresh start up.
> > > > >
> > > > > The reason you would hand me the keys is that the problem may require something more than just pushing a button. I also have extraction software and web space, if surgery is required.
> > > > >
> > > > > But then again, you are the person who doesn't even know where the site is.
> > > >
> > > > Sean,
> > > >
> > > > Actually there's no chance I am mistaken about the location (i.e. URL) of the old pre-Sean Borders group and its archive. I think you missed what I was saying about it last night --- OK, given the late hour.
> > > >
> > > > You're a member of Analytic. Go to the main front page at:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analytic/
> > > >
> > > > There you will see:
> > > >
> > > > "See also the sister group Analytic Philosophy (borders of)."
> > > >
> > > > That link has been on the Analytic home page unchanged since the late 90s. And if you click the link, it takes you to the URL:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analytic-borders/
> > > >
> > > > which is the Borders home page.
> > > >
> > > > And if you are a Borders member and click the Messages link, it takes you to:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analytic-borders/messages
> > > >
> > > > which is the index to the message archive.
> > > >
> > > > Note the hyphens, please. This is the way it is now in the resurrected group, and the way it always has been. Except now the message archive contains only post-Sean messages.
> > > >
> > > > Get it? If someone asked me in 2004 what was the URL of the Borders archive, I would have replied...
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analytic-borders/messages
> > > >
> > > > ...with the hyphen, and this would have been correct. There is no doubt that this was the URL that provided an index to all the pre-Sean messages, which have since disappeared.
> > > >
> > > > Now where these hyphenless URLs came from, I have no idea. Something screwy happened during the Border Wars, possibly just a typo on your part or Rodrigo's. But I see no reason why the message archive should have migrated out of
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analytic-borders/messages
> > > >
> > > > and into the hyphenless
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analyticborders/messages
> > > >
> > > > Until yesterday, I had never heard of the existence of the hyphenless URLs, and neither had anyone else but you as far as I know.
> > > >
> > > > I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the unusual sequence of events exposing a Yahoo software bug. It wouldn't be the first time that happened.
> > > >
> > > > LT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So, I tell you what: we'll just leave it all in your capable hands.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "larry_tapper" <Philscimind@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "seanwilsonorg" <ludwig.sean@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't have time at the moment to address everything. It's past midnight here. This is my Rockford time. Maybe Kolshak.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But I want to quickly say this:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The REAL borders is the one without the hyphen. The other one is Borders 2. So here is the point: you want your archives back, get me the keys to the old borders. Whoever is the owner of that site -- the one without the hyphen -- should log in and make me moderator. I'll dig them out for you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sean,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's extremely strange, because Analytic still has a message "visit our sister group", and the link given there, which has never changed, has the hyphen. The link given in Analytic always worked fine. So it beats me how the hyphenless URL became the "REAL" link. When would this have happened, and how?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose I could try to track down the original founder Rodrigo and ask him if he owns a hyphenless variant of the group, though I can't imagine why he would. Possibly some comedy of typographical errors occurred at the time of all the turmoil about Borders.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If Rodrigo isn't the owner, I have no clue who would be. My first guess would be you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And if Rodrigo did turn out to be the owner, there would be no particular reason to hand *you* the keys. Once the group is reopened, it'll be obvious what if anything is in there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > LT
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's possible they may have to be extracted with a program; I don't know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But if Rodrigo is still the guy, tell him to go to that cite and see if he can get me in. I can fish out your archives.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As far as I know, everything is still there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "larry_tapper" <Philscimind@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "seanwilsonorg" <ludwig.sean@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm not sure we are communicating. Let's go very slowly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. When you say that Brampton is moderating, do you mean this site here:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analytic-borders/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sean,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, this group, with the hyphen, is what Borders was always called in the URL.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Or this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/analyticborders/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Huh? I didn't even know the group without the hyphen existed! Who owns this one? Must be you I guess, or else the result of some old clerical error.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2. I never deleted any mails. You should review our correspondence in 2009. I was very public in explaining everything I did. I had no idea archives had disappeared. When you mailed me about it, I didnt even know what you were talking about.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 3. All I thought I was doing was sending a defunct address list back to its owner, who could have mailed those people an invitation to join the private group.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > OK, but if you want to start a private group by invitation only, what's the point of deleting the entire membership of an already existing public group??
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > SW> I made its so that Borders would not belong to either faction as a matter of inertia. We were forced to leave Borders as much as you. You always forget that part of the story: you guys forced us out too. So we went on our way to build our home.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "We"? Who's we? The only action taken after the messages and members all disappeared was your removal as moderator of Analytic-borders.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > SW> You guys started Borders 2, which today has about the same number of functioning participants as when Borders 1 was closed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No, a lot fewer actually, unless dozens more have signed uop recently.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > SW> To my knowledge, the old Borders always remained recoverable by someone who would simply send those addys an email.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And again, why put anyone through the trouble of doing that? I could be wrong, I suppose, but from my point of view the deletion of all the members was an act of utterly pointless vandalism.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Honestly, it's hard for me to understand what you were thinking. It's not as if "Analytic-borders" was a valuable brand name known throughout the world of Internet philosophy, so that it was worth engaging in some kind of power struggle to implement your vision under that name. It was, and is, an obscure backwater with a handful of amateur members like most other Yahoo groups. So is Analytic. If you have a vision for a certain kind of group, what's wrong with starting your own? Indeed you have done that, and nobody has any problem with that.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > SW> If you really are trying to restore the OLD borders, why don't you invite me to be a member so I can at least see what you are seeing. No messages were ever deleted. Again, check your 2009 mails from me. That should be very clear.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you want to join for some reason, just ask Martin and see how he responds. It's up to him. I'm just a member, not an official inviter or anything like that.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But what you would see is very simple to describe: about 700 messages in the archive last I looked, but not a one dating from before the Border Wars.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "larry_tapper" <Philscimind@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "seanwilsonorg" <ludwig.sean@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ... here's what I did. I deleted the members and set the group to "closed." This meant that no one could see the archives unless they were a member.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sean,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Looking at the Group Settings, "Closed" means membership by invitation only: it has nothing to do with management of the archive.
> > > > > > > > > > A moderator can turn archive access off (the setting is called Off under Archive options) but once it's restored, I see no reason why only the post-restoration part of the archive should be viewable.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You asked who's moderating Borders now --- it's not me but Martin Brampton. Anyway, the group is now set up the same way it was before, and the archives look perfectly normal --- they're just missing all the old messages. So I still have no idea why that should be the case, if they were not deleted.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Would you care to explain why you deleted all the members? Without any advance notice too, IIRC. I imagine that startled quite a few occasional lurkers when they tried to check the latest messages.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Once my membership was removed, I lost sight of the archives, too. The owner of the group can still see them. The owner, in theory, should be able to make the membership no longer "closed," though I don't know that one for sure.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "larry_tapper" <Philscimind@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --------- Response from Sean Wilson -----------
> > > > > > > > > > > > I did not delete a thing. I could still see the archives as i was closing the shop. The archives are not gone, they are just hidden. I did not know that would result when I turned the lights out.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sean,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If the Borders archives are still retrievable, that would be nice, because there are some posts I'd like to be able to fish out of them, such as an index to On Certainty I made a few years ago.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Could you explain what you mean by "closing the shop" and "turning the lights out"? As you know I'm a Yahoo moderator too, and I don't see any such options on the Management menus, which are rather simple.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > As far as I know, the only way to make the archive go away is to delete its contents. You can restrict access to it, but then we'd expect the messages to reappear once access is restored. I can view the Borders archive now, but it is missing all the old messages.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So it might help to understand what you meant by "turning the lights out".
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Phil-Sci-Mind at yahoogroups.com, "whoooo26505" <ludwig.sean@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are two messages that were sent to the forum in the wrong way. I deleted them. So here is the content:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I checked the older lists (the Wisdom Forum and the Philosophy and Science of Mind) and can find little on the debate re: the relative merits of Dennett's model vs. Searle's CRA denial. It looks like that argument must have arisen some time around the switch from the Wittgenstein-dialognet to Analytic-Borders that Bruce and I made. Since he and I were then discussing the subject of moral judgments, I would hazard that the serious stuff on consciousness only got going after we made that switch, i.e., it probably began on Borders. It may have started after I made some comment in passing on the subject and PDJ responded to me off-line and I suggested we hold our debate in the more public spotlight of the Borders list. Unfortunately, if I recall aright, Sean, you cleaned out the old Borders archive when you were briefly running it so, if that's where the debate began, its origins are now lost to history (unless you can pull them up again)! -- SWM
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --------- Response from Sean Wilson -----------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not delete a thing. I could still see the archives as i was closing the shop. The archives are not gone, they are just hidden. I did not know that would result when i turned the lights out. Whoever is the owner of that group can still see them. If we knew the password and username, I believe they could be extracted by many different software programs . In fact, I think fur forum could do that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Response from Stuart ---------
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean, I've been trying to respond to an apparently private e-mail you sent me from this site but when I do it ends up going out as an e-mail but not appearing on this list. I don't know if it's an artifact of something gone haywire with my computer link or something with the list server itself at Yahoo, something in the software perhaps? Anyway, this post is partly a test of Yahoo (if it works, it should post here) and partly a repeat of my post which has so far failed to appear here twice!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Got your e-mail Sean re: the disappearance of the old archives from Borders and I apologize for suggesting that you had intentionally wiped them away.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That HAD been the allegation of some of your adversaries which I'd read on Analytic during the heated arguments that erupted back when you briefly took charge of Borders and attempted to redirect it. Of course I should have been more senstive to what can happen when a particular narrative is presented as fact and hammered home through high volume rhetoric and repetition. It tends to work its way into the history we recall!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me correct the record here, using your own statement about this:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out, you ". . . did not delete [them] [and] . . . could still see [them] as [you were] closing the shop. . . . The archives are not gone, they are just hidden. . . . the owner of that group can still see them. . ."
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I do apologize for inadvertently perpetuating one of the many false narratives that tend to worm their way into the historical record thanks to rhetorical excess and the inattention of some, like me, who should know better!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > SWM
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Philscimind mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Philscimind@
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
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